Incidents in london

[Kwacky]

There are a lot of marked and unmarked police cars now with guns in them.

[T.C.]

I m not saying we should arm all Police but I don't see the same amount of armed officers in other major city's. Begs the question how vulnerable are Manchester and Birmingham to similar acts for example ???

Many years ago, a national poll was held internally to find out what the general concensus was with regards to arming us full time.

I am going back to the late 80's early 90's I grant you, but I was one of the 80% + who said that if were were made to carry guns as part of our uniform and on a daily basis we would resign.

Back then, our attitude was that we Policed by consent and had been taught to talk our way out of trouble in the main. In my area and in my department in particular, we were also still very raw and suffering as it was shortly after Hungerford (1987) when we lost our friend and colleague Roger (Gobby) Brereton.

We also worked on the basis that arming the Police full time would breed further violence and an increase in gun use.

We also had an attitude that you get cowboys in Police cars with the "Look at me I am cool" type attitude. Give the same cowboy a gun and the potential for disaster does not bear thinking about.

And then you have the issue of the consequences if you draw your weapon which increase expedentially if you discharge your weapon and injure or worse still kill someone, and of course the officer has to live to with that for the rest of their days. Not a problem if it is a scumbag such as the one killed yesterday, but in the normal course of policing.

Even now, compared with many other countries, we are by and large pretty furtunate in that we do not have a recognised gun culture and so firearms incidents are kept fairly low.

Anyway, the point I was making badly and getting to is, I wonder what the concensus and opinion would be now if serving bods were asked the same question again today?

If thet agreed to carry guns routinely, would that put paid to the tradition of a citizen locally appointed and policing by consent withthe consent of his/her community?

Does the UK Police service then become more of a para military organisation? This was something that was guggested when we on traffic were issued with NATO pullovers back in the early 80's.

I don't know the answer...

[Blade]

I m not suggesting we arm the Police TC and agree with all your points.

My observation was in London beat officers were carrying guns when we were there a few weeks back. An example that stood out to me at the time was a Constable buying shopping in Tesco Express with a side arm. That was not something I was used too.

I guess to a certain degree the MET has become semi-armed as a force if that makes sense.

I do wonder how Manchester or Birmingham forces as an example could react as quickly. Granted there will be a well trained and highly professional armed response unit on call but my question is related to response time in these other city's.

Yesterday in Westminster armed officers were fortunately on scene at the time of the incident and quickly brought the situation to an end point.

Same event in another city would that be possible? If the response time for a car mounted SWAT style unit to respond is 5 or 10 minutes how many more people could these cowardly attackers kill in that time?

[Kwacky]

The city centres are well protected. But if that attack happened further out then it would take a while for the right responders to be on scene.

[T.C.]

My observation was in London beat officers were carrying guns when we were there a few weeks back. An example that stood out to me at the time was a Constable buying shopping in Tesco Express with a side arm. That was not something I was used too.

And you make a fair observation. It is something that we are not used to in this country, and was the reason why I raised the subject in my previous post.

At Westminster and other places of high risk, the Police are armed routinely. Buck House, Windsor, Chequers, Heathrow, Gatwick to name but a few. It is seeing coppers carrying as a matter of routine as you mention that I think people would have problems accepting.

Response times outside of the likes of London will always be an issue

I still think back to Hungerford https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungerford_massacre" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; thre worst day I ever experienced as a Policeman. It took Roger 20 minutes to get from Newbury to Hungerford it took the rest of us on Traffic considerably longer (I had to et from Reading and I was in the plain car a Capri 2.8i) and then there was the issue with the parrafin budgie getting airborne from Kidlington which delayed the firearms team.

There was one local bobby on scene, Roger arrived 20 minutes later and paid with his life, and it was over 40 minutes after the initial 999 call was made before we started arriving in significant number by which time it was too late. Everyone was dead by then.

Roger only responded because he had served at Hungerford before joining us on Traffic and so knew the area, and as was the norm, you don't give a stuff about your own safety, you just think about getting there and helping.

But the reason I mention all this is because it is not so much the big cities that there is an issue, it is the rural areas where catastrophic damage can be caused and where the biggest delays would be experienced as I can testify to.

I don't think there is an answer but you raise a valid point..

This was Roger's patrol car which the insurers wnated to put back into service. In those days on Traffic we had personal issue vehicles

[D41]

1987 reg??

[T.C.]

1987 reg??

September 1986 registered

[Kwacky]

I see that the attacker was from Kent and was recently living in the West Midlands.

Still, it won't stop the racists from calling for a total ban in immigration.

[D41]

1987 reg??

September 1986 registered

Oh...so close!!

Maybe it's just "A Reg. Too Far"???

[Kwacky]

D reg came in in August 1986 for 12 months.

[duke63]

Was the officer murdered yesterday not armed or was he not quick enough to defend himself? There are some reports that the attacker was actually shot by the bodyguard of a Government minister.

[Kwacky]

The police officer was unarmed.

[duke63]

Can't believe an officer working close to the HofP wasn't armed.

[D41]

Was the officer murdered yesterday not armed or was he not quick enough to defend himself? There are some reports that the attacker was actually shot by the bodyguard of a Government minister.

Yes....heard the same thing on the CNN feed. The right place during the worst of times, IMO.

[T.C.]

Was the officer murdered yesterday not armed or was he not quick enough to defend himself? There are some reports that the attacker was actually shot by the bodyguard of a Government minister.

Yes....heard the same thing on the CNN feed. The right place during the worst of times, IMO.

My sources have confirmed that it was one of the personal protection team for the Home Secretary that shot the b@stard.

The phrase given to me "They put 3 rounds into him and put him down...."

It is not uncommon even for high risk security locations for there to be a combination of both armed and unarmed.

Even unarmed, natural instinct kicks in to go towards the danger, not back off. You don't think of the risk, the danager or the consequences. You may take a deep breath afterwards if you come out unscathed but at the time, Adrenalin takes over and the risk is not even considered (well for most anyway)

[TonyB]

I know that feeling. It can be addictive.

[D41]

I don't think you have a choice....at some level you're just rexponding to stimuli...the "flashlight in a dark room".....no matter how bright it is, people never just turn and look away.....they'll hold their hand up and STILL try to look.

[Monty]

Farage has been on Fox News saying we need to consider a travel ban in light of the Westminster attack.

Not sure how the people of Kent would feel about that!

[Kwacky]

He's right, 52 year old men from Kent are dangerous and need to be locked up.

[D41]

No. Just Monty.